Traci Scherck: Welcome to the talent optimization podcast today we are chatting about how do you know when things are going great in your business and how do you know when they are not right um and I have a guest with me today his name is David princeton so David welcome to the show.

David Princeton: Thank you Tracy.

Traci Scherck: it’s great to have you here so david’s the principal consultant at advocate claims services.

Traci Scherck: So, David and I have worked together on a couple of plants in the past and kind of meandered our way back and forth, he is the person that I call when I have.

Traci Scherck: Insurance questions that are related more to like property and casualty or work COMP questions when i’m like I know enough to be really dangerous and know that i’m going to fall flat on my face, I called even.

David Princeton: Well, thank you for that Tracy.

Traci Scherck: Do you agree that that’s a true story.

David Princeton: that those are true statements and I think one of the great reasons why you can trust, a call me is because I don’t actually sell the products so i’m not trying to necessarily mark things up or change a program. Because I don’t I don’t have an interest in that right. Straight up just good honest risk management advice.

Traci Scherck: And it’s in it’s good for sure.

Traci Scherck: So, you know as we dig in like hey, how do you diagnose what’s not going great in the business and so often on our podcast or listeners here are diagnosing people problems right and that fact that every business problem is really a people problem. And you and I, David talked a lot about this with work COMP claims. And you know how we mitigate those work COMP plans and because they definitely become a business problem, but so much of it is, how are we handling and working with empowering our people.

David Princeton: Right and so, so a lot of that intersection a lot of that intersection comes back to that idea of expectations becoming agreements. And the disconnect that happens between those things, so a lot of times I would I would imagine, at least in hr. You have a lot of expectations right of people’s performance of the way that they do it, but did anyone actually seek out an agreement. Around those expectations, did we verbalize it that we actualize it do we build operations of process.

David Princeton: Did we do all of those things around the expectations of the business of the leader of the employee right and did we get them to the point of becoming agreements their formalize that understood, and we have executable and actionable items to take.

David Princeton: You know a lot of what I see in my world is a complete disconnect between the expectations of a policyholder in this case of business.

David Princeton: And what their insurance program actually is going to do for them in the time of a loss and and the neat part is the process for that is a really, really ancient principle it’s called reading.

Traci Scherck: I oh wait wait wait wait, we have to read.

David Princeton: You have two meanings.

David Princeton: Well, so so number one, yes, you have david’s for that, because David loves to read and loves to read insurance contracts and.

David Princeton: Right and that are thick right so so literally on my desk I have a company’s.

David Princeton: Insurance portfolio that is 1234567 binders thick so seven one inch binders thick of beautiful promise right so schedules a property all the different.

David Princeton: Liability coverage is all the warranty statements, all the applications that were made all those things right, no doubt, a lot of work went into it.

David Princeton: i’ve been untangling it so that the expectations that that business owner actually has ended up in that paperwork.

David Princeton: Right and what i’m finding is a large disconnect right so i’m finding gaps within their insurance programs, you know.

David Princeton: Not all locations that they own actually made it into the policy right so like that’s kind of a big deal when you’re a real estate company so and then just all the other little nuances right, so like how is vacancy defined.

David Princeton: Right is if they can see somehow connected to occupancy.

David Princeton: Right, you know, do I just have to have it furnished all those fun little things.

Traci Scherck: yeah and so when we make this relevant for HR listeners in so i’m going to focus on work at home.

Traci Scherck: Right now for a second.

Traci Scherck: And look at some of those work COMP because you and I played with a number of the is right, like one specifically was hey we have a situation where we have some of work COMP we don’t want him sitting at home so we’re going to put him in.

Traci Scherck: I love the fact that you’re backing up right now, so what we’re going to put him or her into you know, a Community situation where they can go ahead and do some work.

Traci Scherck: that’s fantastic like those programs can work, really, really well as long as the way they’re written benefits that organization and in our situation.

Traci Scherck: You know what we found is we, in this wasn’t just the situation i’ve had it in others in the past is if we don’t follow up with the employee and the organization on what they’re actually doing, they can get too comfortable and not want to actually come back to work right.

David Princeton: Right and or they or their expectations changed right around how what they’re getting paid to do so um so it’s interesting Tracy so you’re talking about return to work programs and.

David Princeton: These are wonderful wonderful tools for business owners to have.

David Princeton: There can be some tax benefits talk to a qualified CPA about that, but the insurance expert or insurance benefits are it’s a way to ultimately reduce the impact of the claim on your MOD right so so that MOD impact.

David Princeton: Ultimately, gets diminished but here’s the teeter totter right, so if you’re going to put somebody in a a nonprofit area to work right, so that they can perform tasks within their limitations.

David Princeton: you’re at you, as a company are paying that deal.

David Princeton: And that’s the savings right that goes that ultimately stays off of your work COMP loss history well there’s a right way to use that tool and there’s a wrong way to use that tool right.

David Princeton: Now the right way, is for sort of like a short term gap fill.

David Princeton: Right this person might return to full duty, and you know, two weeks or something like that.

David Princeton: Or you know, we have some questions about we have some questions about this this uh this employees willingness to return to work so let’s put them into a work environment.

David Princeton: Where you know performing the work for a nonprofit so like sorting donations at a goodwill, for example.

David Princeton: You know, sorting, those clothes might be a worst task than the work that they perform for us as the employer right, and so, how do we get them back into that employment roll all being cognizant and aware of their limitations.

David Princeton: Right, so can we meet these accommodations.

Traci Scherck: So with that.

Traci Scherck: I have some employers will call me and say hey Tracy, can I just have them count staples and the Office because it’s worse than doing the work the answers, yes, you can.

David Princeton: yeah no and there’s so there’s not a problem there’s not a problem with the the tasks being assigned right the The difference is this is that it just has to be within their accommodations right.

within their limitations.

David Princeton: You know, but going back to even contemplating the idea of of that of that alternative work.

David Princeton: If you don’t have clearly defined job descriptions if you don’t have clearly defined physical performance activities.

David Princeton: And if that doesn’t make it into that doctor’s appointment wherever that employee chooses the tree if it doesn’t make it into that payment it becomes really hard for the physician to them define what those accommodations can be.

David Princeton: right because they don’t have an idea of those limitations or how to work with.

Traci Scherck: Correct and this goes back to your first point of our expectations showing up in the agreements.

Traci Scherck: You know, and we can take that to work COMP and I know you can take it to a million other areas that you serve organizations with but it’s so important that it’s crystal clear what that is.

Traci Scherck: You know, one of the things that we do is we actually send them a letter that says here is the amount of time, we are going to.

Traci Scherck: give you this accommodation here’s the requirements for that and here’s what that looks like right so that that’s in writing for them, and that kind of goes into how do we respond to those things when that comes up.

Traci Scherck: And, knowing that throughout that process, you know and i’m going to throw this back to you when do you make a claim when you call work COMP when you get your insurance agent involved like where does all those things happen.

David Princeton: Right so i’m immediately is the best answer that.

David Princeton: From from a compliance perspective 24 hours and keep in mind weekends count in that time like there’s no such thing as taking a day off right.

Traci Scherck: there’s this little thing called OSHA out there that cares about workplace injuries.

David Princeton: Yes, and and OSHA and then there’s mandatory reporting that you know for different series of incidents that have to go back to OSHA and.

David Princeton: You know, so one of the things that i’m a big proponent of is something called a nurse triage line right so.

David Princeton: So if you, you know so a nurse triage line is is can be a completely freelanced attach onto your HR program right, so you can go out, you can find your own vendor.

David Princeton: But ideally what you would do is that nurse triage line would ultimately be able to bolt on to your workers COMP carrier right.

David Princeton: And the reason why is that what a nurse can do is when you have an incident that happens in the field, or in your in your facility.

David Princeton: They can find a private room and with the magic of technology, they can do video chat right they can give course of treatment they can keep people from going to the er for a paper cut.

David Princeton: right which all helps impact them on why get a $5,000 bill when they can go to urgent care for 200 bucks right.

David Princeton: And you know kind of keep things medical only or just provide that initial medical guidance that an employer commonly is not licensed to provide right, you know we don’t live in the rub some dirt on it and get back to work.

David Princeton: environment of a workplace.

Traci Scherck: Are you sure.

David Princeton: um you know so, so I would say if you’re rubbing dirt on something you’re asking for you’re asking for some bigger problems.

David Princeton: Right, you know and then there’s a I would say that there’s a difference right between what an employee chooses to do.

David Princeton: And then, once it becomes known to management right, so if an employee chooses to not disclose not do those things that’s kind of their choice.

David Princeton: But the moment that the company or it’s representative becomes aware of it.

David Princeton: You know that’s where we have to have proper process that’s where we have to have proper reporting and that’s where we’re having a strong background in.

David Princeton: notifying workers COMP carriers right getting adjusters involved asking for nurse case managers to show up with those appointments right because they can they can be in the room right.

David Princeton: And then you know really just trying to all, for the benefit of the employee right and that’s The one thing that that maybe point out is we’re doing this all for the benefit of the employee.

David Princeton: Right so workers COMP is one of three forms of what I like to call entitlement insurance, meaning that if you’re an employee and you’re injured you’re entitled to the benefits.

David Princeton: Right when to stop you from getting right now, as the business, you have decisions that you can make right that can reduce the impact.

David Princeton: that the benefits being provided that employees during their course of healing have on your ability to be competitive in the marketplace right so One of those is a pre loss.

David Princeton: Risk review right so are you having lost control, whether it’s from your insurance company or from your broker or again an independent vendor are they going around and looking at your facilities to make sure that you’re meeting OSHA compliance standards.

David Princeton: That safeguards are on the machines.

David Princeton: right that things are not being modified you know if you’re a construction company and you’re out in the field and your environment is constantly changing and subject to the elements.

David Princeton: Right What are those processes What are those lost control measures that we’re taking well how our extension cords, for example, extension cords and ice are the biggest scourge that exists right.

David Princeton: Because they’re tripping balls right.

David Princeton: Wait trips and falls it’s number one loss leader anywhere slip trip and fall right super broad category.

David Princeton: But it’s all that pro it’s all that proactive part that goes into managing and effective business and yet becomes an expense, but where that expense hits your ability to go to market and to price your services or your products or your goods.

David Princeton: running an effective safety is what lets you be more competitive right So if you have so a MOD is a one point of right, meaning that you are exactly where you need to be from the risk class that you’re gluten.

David Princeton: Right, so if you’re a point four, eight MOD you’re paying less you’re you’re you’re at least half right of what your next competitor who’s a one is going to pay for workers COMP coverage.

David Princeton: Right.

David Princeton: But again, if you’re a 1.5 you’re paying a penalty right, so your cost of goods your cost of of services is going to be higher right so.

Traci Scherck: And not only that you’re probably losing contracts, because of it.

David Princeton: Correct yes, especially, especially in a construction field.

David Princeton: where you have to have certain expectations certain performances, have to be met.

David Princeton: assurances have to be given, not to say that you can’t get a good guy letter and you can’t get these other things, and you can’t show a concerted effort is being made with a focus on safety and reducing losses.

David Princeton: Because the interesting thing about your MOD is it’s a it’s a four year it’s a four year trail.

David Princeton: Where three the last three years count yeah so so that’s um and it’s based off of the principle that maturity of claims that cleans the longer they go on the higher they go.

David Princeton: yeah and so, so the wc rb right they want to look at those kinds of reading bureau, they want to look at they want to look at that three year trailing or that four year trailing three years counting kind of average.

David Princeton: Right so to want to give employees a chance to get their full benefits right absolutely absolutely.

Traci Scherck: So, as we look at this kind of insurance as a whole, one of those key things that we talked about is diagnosing where something is potentially wrong before you end up with a loss right.

Traci Scherck: And like I said at the very beginning, we do this so often if we do an employee’s survey we’re diagnosing what’s wrong, so we can fix it before we have a significant amount of turnover.

Traci Scherck: And you know when we look at insurance, and you know from talking with so many HR professionals.

Traci Scherck: One of the things that comes up so often is I don’t really understand what i’m looking at and how to make a recommendation.

Traci Scherck: To you know to our executive team to our CEO to our owner with us and you know, David I know you’ve got some kind of really key tips and tricks for our listeners, as far as hey make sure you look at these things when you’re looking at whether its benefits.

Traci Scherck: In terms or whether it’s property and casualty so i’m i’m just going to pick your brain right now and say like what are those top things that are really important for our listeners to kind of pay attention to.

Traci Scherck: As they’re going into because typically we go into renewals in the fall and so we’re getting there close to that So what are some of those key things to look at whether at a renewal or when we’re looking at new broker.

David Princeton: Sure, so um so number so i’ll separate this into two categories of advice right.

David Princeton: Sure um so property and casualty right, so you know your liability coverage is your workers COMP your property insurance or auto all that kind of stuff.

David Princeton: And then employee benefits, on the other side right.

David Princeton: um so on the property and casualty side.

David Princeton: A nice little acronym rtmp right so read the full policy so so that that’s number one right um one of the things to understand, about the great state of Wisconsin.

David Princeton: And for any State right so insurance is state regulated, but in the great state of Wisconsin a broker has no responsibility to you as the policyholder to actually read the promise that they’re delivering to you.

David Princeton: Right, the the obligation and wisconsin’s actually pretty low if you ask them for a million dollar limit of liability, they have to go out and get you a million dollar liability or try to I should emphasize try to they don’t have to succeed.

David Princeton: Right, I just have to try, they have to request.

David Princeton: Right so so beyond that the idea that somebody is actually reading the promise that ends up on your desk that ends up being delivered that you paid good money for is very near right.

David Princeton: You know there’s a lot of there’s a lot of learning by allegory right so storytelling you know all this one time this was covered and this other time this was covered right.

David Princeton: But, quite honestly, like reading the full policy is great so reading the full policy.

David Princeton: If you’ve never read an insurance policy before it’s actually really good to read it, because it’s going to cause you to ask questions, and when you go back and you ask your broker these questions that you’ve generated right you’re going to find out what kind of metal your brokers made.

David Princeton: Right, so if they’re able to engage with you and show you with the policy and sit down and actually engage in a meaningful way and walk you through all of the questions that you’ve developed from reading the policy right.

David Princeton: that’s a really good broker if they try to come back and say you know hey let’s do something else, or you know don’t worry about it you’re covered right and they try to minimize you know you kind of your questions or inquiry that can be a sign of a bad broke.

David Princeton: Right and.

Traci Scherck: here’s what I will say is there’s no stupid question there even like hey I don’t understand what this language means or what’s in line 15.2 if I don’t understand how the lines back to.

Traci Scherck: write you know, three three lines or three paragraphs about that, because that becomes incredibly important, especially when situations come up.

David Princeton: Right.

David Princeton: And they were right, and so um so you know, and we are talking about workers COMP right.

David Princeton: Right so so one of the one of the most beautiful questions I think anybody can ask an insurance broker is.

David Princeton: What is employers liability so aka workers COMP one the coverage right, so one is the workers COMP promise one the employers liability what is employers liability and how does it work.

David Princeton: Right, so if they can answer that question in a meaningful way in the state of Wisconsin that’s a sign of a good broker right um I don’t know if I should give away the answer.

Traci Scherck: Now.

David Princeton: So he tell me.

Traci Scherck: He answer.

Traci Scherck: Because they’re going to be several.

David Princeton: There can be.

Traci Scherck: a litmus test right.

David Princeton: Right right.

Traci Scherck: You know, and I just want to name like we have listeners all across the country so.

Traci Scherck: Even though we’re specifically talking about Wisconsin here, David how many states are you licensed in.

David Princeton: um I think so, then currently so but.

Traci Scherck: Now you’ve had a goal of like all 50 yeah well so yeah so i’m pretty much qualified that I could walk in any state, I wanted to.

David Princeton: With enough licensing and education and whatnot where I usually need an exemption.

David Princeton: For the license but but yeah so Okay, so the advice is broader right so um so uh going well, so with the magic of editing room.

David Princeton: So.

Traci Scherck: You don’t want us to.

David Princeton: Well mono we can leave this in but or you know you make your choices right um but going back to reading the full policy.

David Princeton: So in the state, so I mentioned that in the state of Wisconsin one of the duties they asked for limits yeah well in other states right so so, for example, like the great State of Texas right.

David Princeton: So in other states, the duty, there is actually on the policyholder to read and understand their policy.

David Princeton: Right, so the broker and the broker actually as a result, they have no responsibility to even read or understand the policy they’re selling right.

David Princeton: In in other states, the standard is actually shifted and it is placed on the broker right to read and understand and know the policy of the promise that’s being sold, so the point is is especially if you’re a.

David Princeton: If you’re based in a state and have operations in many or multiple states.

David Princeton: Understanding where your promises being delivered right and where your brokers feet are right, as far as what state they’re in.

David Princeton: You could end up in a situation where your brokers in and i’ll just use states again as an example, your brokers in Minnesota and your operations are in iowa.

David Princeton: And you have you have or your headquarters in iowa and you have operations in Wisconsin New York Florida, and you know Oklahoma right.

David Princeton: So where’s that insurance transaction actually taking place right right.

David Princeton: um you know if it’s a Minnesota based brokerage are they large enough to understand what when you’re talking to an underwriter that carrier about how anti indemnity statutes in Minnesota.

David Princeton: impact the formation of a promise that’s then going to be delivered in iowa where you don’t have anti indemnity statutes right so like all those little things all those little nuances are is that level of detail so party.

Traci Scherck: I will just same this you just went over my head and i’m making this for our listeners, so if you’re listening in and going what the heck did David just say this is such the importance of having a broker, where you can dig in.

Traci Scherck: And at least ask the questions to say you know pull out some of these things that David just said.

Traci Scherck: Just to see hey do they know enough to know where we’re at, especially if you have multiple states and the brokers in a different state, because this comes up all the time.

Traci Scherck: And the other thing I want to point out right now is with remote work what we’re seeing so often is you are in let’s say Wisconsin and.

Traci Scherck: So you’re in Wisconsin and Illinois, but you have remote workers and Colorado.

Traci Scherck: in Texas in New York and California now I picked three of the trickiest states, and what I just listed off there being Colorado New York in California.

Traci Scherck: So with That being said, understanding that even if they are remote work from home they are there, but is in the seat in that state, which means you have to follow the laws in that state.

Traci Scherck: So we won’t go any further than that, other than to say like you need a call somebody on that to help you through it.

Traci Scherck: and David you’re laughing.

David Princeton: Right well, so you know I also think of the employment taxes right.

David Princeton: And you know whether there’s a reciprocity agreement between the States.

David Princeton: Right.

Traci Scherck: Or the important calm and all the links.

David Princeton: And all those things right and or did you go into a a captive state where you actually have to buy into the States, you know program pool.

David Princeton: yeah so our tfp rtmp novice level right is read the policy write down your list of questions talk to your broker.

David Princeton: If you’re satisfied in that conversation that dialogue and you feel really good, because your brokers, giving you solid advice back.

David Princeton: Because they actually are entertaining your questions wonderful right are tfp the pro edition right so read the full policy, the prohibition i’m if i’m talking if i’m talking over tracy’s head one I apologize for that, but to.

Traci Scherck: point that out, because I, my sisters and my head going wait a second what did you say, am I right.

David Princeton: yeah what part of this is English right, so the art the art fb prohibition um that’s where you can reach out to companies like mine, so advocate clean service right.

Traci Scherck: So much fun I love it.

David Princeton: shameless plug right so.

David Princeton: So every claim service so.

David Princeton: We read the full policy right we analyze it we look for gaps.

David Princeton: If it’s over my head i’ve got a series of consultants that i’ve developed relationships with over the past 20 years all across the country all in their own special niches right.

David Princeton: So there’s there’s all kinds of ways that that you can get an answer or form a reasonable expectation of what this promises or find these gaps right, if I can share with you one of the one of the sexy are gaps that exists in insurance policies right.

David Princeton: So cyber right so cyber insurance is a big conversation these days mentioned remote work we’re doing this remotely right.

David Princeton: So it’s the new form of business finally.

Right.

David Princeton: So so cyber policies well, so there was a financial institution right, so you know very large bank, it was Credit Union all across the country right.

David Princeton: And they, like every other bank have an APP that you engage with to make mobile deposits to transfer funds, you know check your balances all that great stuff they had a cyber policy had 100 million dollar limit of insurance right.

David Princeton: And it had a subcontractor exclusion.

David Princeton: So what do you think happens when your your federal insured limit right for that credit unions $250,000 you have more than that in the account and a breach occurs through their vendor and subcontractor provided APP.

David Princeton: and your money’s gone.

David Princeton: Right right so here this financial institution thought they were buying cyber insurance coverage to protect that to the tune of 100 million dollars worth of coverage right the same a cheap policy to but they got a subcontractor exclusion did the expectation meet the agreement right.

David Princeton: Now, and and here’s the beautiful fix of these things they can just be honest mistakes, they can be small oversights nobody’s necessarily trying to pull a fast one over on you as long as it’s a for the loss.

David Princeton: Because the underwriter can then just reform that policy relatively easily.

David Princeton: In this particular case, there was no premium increase right So what did we do we just added that we scheduled out the subcontractors right so when you think of your cyber policy that you bought when you went out and got cloud computing.

David Princeton: Right and you’re clicking I agree you’re clicking I agree on every box without reading.

David Princeton: More than likely you’ve agreed to accept.

David Princeton: All liability right that exists in that ecosystem if you’re the source of access target hack is a great example right they came in through an H back contractor and somehow got into targets point of sale devices.

David Princeton: Right so so all of those little things right are your expectations, making it into that agreement.

David Princeton: So rtmp prohibition, you can find people like me, you can find people in your geographic area there’s plenty of us that exists.

David Princeton: If you’re more comfortable doing business with somebody in your geographic area more than happy to connect you.

David Princeton: If I happen to know somebody so and I know a lot of good people out there, so.

Traci Scherck: Absolutely and that’s what’s so fantastic about our network right like I just seem to be smart enough to ask the right questions.

Traci Scherck: And to know who to go to with that and I think that when we create these Community is that something incredibly important so we’ve covered a ton of ground today, David so what’s that one kind of key actionable takeaway for our executives that listening into our conversation today.

Traci Scherck: Maybe and learn llc for both executives and HR is that what you’re gonna say.

David Princeton: i’m also.

David Princeton: So I you know, this is where I become maybe more of a realist.

David Princeton: Right um I would say, find someone you trust to read the policy right, these are not easy contracts, these can be thousands of pages long, they can be hundreds of pages long.

David Princeton: they’re full of nuances they change with statutes, they change with case law they change contextually with what factually happens in a claim right um.

David Princeton: Because they’re all interpreted, so I think my I think the advice I would have is probably this if your insurance broker and your attorney whoever you’re using for legal don’t know each other on a first name basis make that connection happen.

David Princeton: mm hmm because your lawyer your lawyer more than likely knows a lot about what is what you’re getting yourself into least I hope so, as a business owner right.

David Princeton: I would hope your lawyer knows what you’re getting yourself into.

David Princeton: and your broker is assuming what you’re getting yourself into when you call and say hey I need this limit, so I can go into this contract and you know actually get this client to sign right.

David Princeton: So get those two people that probably be my biggest action for you so executive level have one of them buy you lunch right and make the connection happen over lunch and make sure that they’re exchanging some information right.

yep.

Traci Scherck: awesome and then for those that are HR listeners I think we’ve talked about reading the full policy so that one you’re getting educated every time you do that and.

Traci Scherck: You know whether it is with brokers or with you know going out for different policies, you know staying within the same broker it’s going to have you learn more because it definitely changes from year to year as that case law changes.

Traci Scherck: Correct awesome anything else you want to add or share with our audience before we you know say thank you for today and I will give you a shameless plug here, David, and that is if you’re not a part of our.

Traci Scherck: talent optimization foundation membership program we do open office hours once a week every Monday at one o’clock we also do do webinars once a month and David will be on an upcoming webinar which we will have linked in the show notes.

David Princeton: perfect and so, if I can i’ll i’ll shamelessly plug the three aspects of of what we do here at advocate.

David Princeton: claims about that.

David Princeton: So one of them we’ve talked about today in great detail, which is that pre loss diligence reviews so reading and analyzing the dynamics of your contractual risk transfer system right.

David Princeton: aka rtmp prohibition another aspect of what we do here is we help out post loss right, so you have a catastrophic incident that’s going to affect the ability of your business to survive.

David Princeton: You have incidents that are hitting your your p&l on the sell side and you had an expectation that coverage should be applying we get involved in that and we represent policyholders to get the full benefits that they’re owed underneath their policies right.

David Princeton: And then the third aspect of our business is what I would describe is like General risk management, over the course of time.

David Princeton: Right, so our risk management consulting so if you’re a growing business and you don’t have somebody on your staff that can be full time and risk manager.

David Princeton: And you need somebody to help bring in the right people and ultimately help you guide through that process we provide that full suite of risk management services as well.

Traci Scherck: awesome Thank you so much for joining us today and.

Traci Scherck: You know check out our our our show notes, which will have the links to all things related to David and to when that upcoming webinar is so that being said, thank you for joining us for this episode of talent optimization and we will see you next week.