Traci Scherck: Welcome to talent optimization my name is Tracy Scherck and we are chatting today about hiring staff, and what that looks like to attract and retain great staff.

Traci Scherck: And as we get started today one of the gifts that I want to give you as our listeners.

Traci Scherck: Is we use something called the predictive index and there’s a behavioral assessment that really tells you who you are right, and one of the great things about it is, as we attract and hire staff, we want to align those staff with.

Traci Scherck: Who is the individual coming in with what the job needs and so often we missed this piece about what the job needs.

Traci Scherck: And how that is specifically tied to the individual and the role, because when we have right fit to write role we are much more likely to have success in this hiring.

Traci Scherck: So my gift to you is this behavioral assessment and, if you want to know more take the behavioral assessment you’ll find it in our show notes.

Traci Scherck: And then we can have that conversation about how you do that so with That being said, I have a special guest on the podcast today and the individual that is joining us today is a.

Traci Scherck: Is a Co founder and CEO of resume seed, and this is Michael Yingerr Mike has been in talent acquisition for nearly 20 years providing support and coaching to multiple organizations across the spectrum of industries so Mike welcome to the show.

Michael Yinger: Thanks Tracy happy to be here.

Traci Scherck: yeah so you know, I know, we had a number of different conversations about attracting and hiring staff, and what that specifically looks like.

Traci Scherck: You know, and one of the things that’s so important to this is.

Traci Scherck: of how we go about doing it right, I just talked a bit about the the job assessment and knowing what the job needs.

Traci Scherck: Because the clients we work with we actually use that job assessment to help tell us very specifically how to market to the specific job applicants So how do you use marketing and sales in attracting the best candidate for the role.

Michael Yinger: Well it’s certainly a hot topic, these days, with the.

Michael Yinger: perceived shortage some industries worse than others in terms of having enough people to fill all the jobs.

Michael Yinger: that there are a couple of ways that the concept of marketing and sales have become very prevalent in the talent space.

Michael Yinger: The first is that the tools for marketing particularly programmatic ad buying have become much more focused.

Michael Yinger: In the talent space where instead of buying ads in a magazine what you’re doing is you’re buying space on a job board.

Michael Yinger: And you’re buying keywords in indeed Whatever the case may be, so there’s a there’s a whole technical side that that really comes from the marketing arena.

Michael Yinger: The other part that i’ve seen in practice, much more frequently is the whole concept of that conversation.

Michael Yinger: That the recruiter is having with the candidate, which really is a sales conversation, especially today where people have choices.

Michael Yinger: And it’s not about just telling them what the job is and telling them what the salary is and then asking them their availability it’s really.

Michael Yinger: getting into do you understand what they need, have you made a connection with them, such that they begin to trust you, and then you can begin to.

Michael Yinger: address their needs, with possibly what it is that you have to offer in the marketplace not everybody’s after money, these days, we know that.

Michael Yinger: Some people are looking for culture, some people are looking for a social conscience.

Michael Yinger: Other people are looking for being at home or frequently so just sort of spewing out all the things that that you offer from a benefits perspective, you might totally miss what this person wants and then they’re gone off to somebody else that’s a sales process.

Traci Scherck: Absolutely, you know, one of the questions that we love to ask with every applicant as soon as we get on the phone with them is what are you looking for in an organization.

Traci Scherck: And then we follow that up.

Traci Scherck: With what are you looking for in your leader.

Traci Scherck: What are you looking for in your team, and what are you looking for in your job, because those four things are the greatest drivers to employee engagement and if we flip it, there are the greatest drivers to employee disengagement.

Michael Yinger: Well, and just the fact that you pose them as questions as opposed to providing answers really shows you you’re engaging in a process to make a connection to have that person tell you what they need all too often.

Michael Yinger: That recruiting process looks like I tell you what I need and you tell me whether or not you’re the right person to fit those needs versus.

Michael Yinger: We need somebody We need people whatever flavor they need to be and what are the things that that person is looking for in a job, so that I know.

Michael Yinger: What to tell them that’s going to have them choose, so I love your approach, the questions are very insightful they’ll tell you a lot about the person.

Michael Yinger: gives you a lot of room to operate and it’s, this is one of the things i’ve seen particularly lately and training of some recruiters.

Michael Yinger: is to get the recruiters comfortable with asking questions as opposed to providing information.

Michael Yinger: And because there’s a kind of a role reversal there where you know it’s it’s it’s just it’s so much easier, just to tell somebody about it, as opposed to digging in a little bit and really understanding, where that person is coming from.

Traci Scherck: Absolutely, and not only that done by asking those four questions what’s happening is they’re telling you if they are a fit to the role.

Traci Scherck: If they are a fit to the organization and if their behavioral styles will potentially fit with what with what you’re looking for right.

Traci Scherck: So just those four questions and i’m going to repeat them, because I, I hear my listeners saying wait What were they again.

Traci Scherck: So you know the four questions are asking that specific applicant, what are you looking for in an organization.

Traci Scherck: What are you looking for in your leader, you can substitute that for manager right, but what are you looking for in that leader.

Traci Scherck: What specifically are you looking for in the team you’re working with and then what are you looking for in the job.

Traci Scherck: Because again those will tell you.

Traci Scherck: What, that is, and then you’re not asking leading questions which goes right back to what you were saying is when we ask leading questions if they really want the job regardless as to if they’re going to be happy in it or not, they may not answer those.

Traci Scherck: In the way, that is the best for the organization.

Michael Yinger: Your qualifying the lead, which is a sales process qualifying the Lead is this.

Michael Yinger: yeah it does it fit you know, can we afford it, is it the right, the right kind of solution Whatever the case may be, it’s it’s.

Michael Yinger: it’s something that that i’m starting to see folks in talent acquisition focus on.

Michael Yinger: And it is again, it is a real shift and it requires some training of the folks who are in that conversation because it’s just not what they’re used to doing asking questions getting to those real fundamentals in time it’s all part of the qualification process.

Traci Scherck: Right absolutely you know, and the fact that the other piece of this is, we know that.

Traci Scherck: The majority of individuals over 90% of individuals are open for new opportunities, but you know the Stat I found was 39% are looking I think the Stat you gave me was 25% are looking so there’s a little bit of distinction there.

Traci Scherck: yeah you know, but once we have someone in that conversation, you know whether they’ve been tapped on the shoulder or whatnot because just job posting anymore isn’t going to attract them right.

Michael Yinger: you’re not you know you’re not gonna find them you the the people who are going to hit you for the job postings are the 25% who are actively looking.

Michael Yinger: and often what you want, what I heard another Stat so we’ll trade stats here heard of this that 63% of the people in working in the US are considering a job change.

Michael Yinger: Now that doesn’t mean they’re actively looking.

Traci Scherck: But it doesn’t mean that.

Michael Yinger: we’d be open to a conversation if the right person comes to them, I was talking to a mid level executive earlier today.

Michael Yinger: And he just took another job he wasn’t out looking he was very happy, where he was.

Michael Yinger: And this other company came to him and said Look, we have a job we think is perfect, for you so it’s that it’s that passive conversation because.

Michael Yinger: You got to really be able to make sure you’ve got the right connection, otherwise you blow the opportunity and and in some some industries, the cost of bringing a candidate into a conversation can be very expensive.

Michael Yinger: that’s one of those in theory that’s one of those relatively controllable costs in recruiting.

Michael Yinger: If you’re able to reduce the number of leads that you need to get the number of employees that you need to hire your you’re going to pull down the whole cost of your your recruiting operation, the cost per hire.

Michael Yinger: i’ve seen i’ve seen some industries as high as $4,000 just for the lead.

Michael Yinger: wow that’s you know, imagine if you just reduce it by 5% you know, instead of instead of converting one and 40 you were you were converting one in 37.

Michael Yinger: yeah you know it’s just it’s an amazing opportunity for recruitment and it’s, not to say that things are easy today because.

Michael Yinger: Again we’ve got that mismatch between the number of people who are available to work and the number of jobs that are out there were there are more jobs, and there are people who are available to work, so you got to take advantage of that conversation.

Michael Yinger: you’re you know that your point, make sure you got the right person in the first place, but then not losing them because you’re meeting them where they want to be not where you want to be.

Traci Scherck: Exactly exactly you know and there’s so i’ve got two points based on what you just said and I love those.

Traci Scherck: What you just said about that meeting them where they need to be versus where you want to be right um.

Traci Scherck: So in this might take us into a retention conversation as well, but I was having and then i’ll go back to my first point, which was specifically about hiring so don’t let me lose that thought.

Traci Scherck: Okay um but but with this retention, it is I just got off the phone with a client and you know what she said was I just had an employee come to me.

Traci Scherck: And we required her to come back to work, because that is what our leadership team had decided so she came to me yesterday and said hey I want more money and.

Traci Scherck: I really missed the flexibility and my response to her was does she really need to be.

Traci Scherck: Working in the office or can she worked from home, and I also knew her behavioral style from the predictive index, and what I know about this individual is that she’s very, very process focused.

Traci Scherck: And she’s very detail oriented What that means is if you’re interrupted in an office all day long it might take you two hours to get back to work once you’re interrupted and.

Traci Scherck: If you’re very detail oriented, it means that deadlines are non negotiable, so if she’s interrupted all day and not able to be as productive as what she believes she can she’s going to have this anxiety and it’s not in her stomach all the time.

Traci Scherck: So the question I had for my client was is not allowing her to work from home a couple days a week, actually decreasing her work performance.

Traci Scherck: And disengaging her from what she’s doing and she’s like oh my gosh I never thought of it that way, but I really want our listeners to think about that, because it has a huge impact on retention.

Michael Yinger: Well it’s really, really insightful way of looking at it it’s amazing the things potentially that we have learned, as a result of this.

Michael Yinger: The situation we’ve been through with covid where you know, in the past, would we have even considered that possibility that.

Michael Yinger: That working from home would be actually be more productive than working in the office no you just bring everybody into the office because that’s what you do and that’s you know it’s the old square peg in the round hole routine.

Michael Yinger: and eventually that that person would find a situation that works for them somewhere else.

Michael Yinger: Right, though.

Michael Yinger: ya know so getting to your getting to your point about retention the i’m a firm believer that retention starts with recruiting.

Michael Yinger: it’s getting the right people in getting them situated and then they’re going to be successful, it, you know if you’re if all you’re doing is filling a quota and putting bodies and seats.

Michael Yinger: Then you’re going to be faced with attrition which has its cost and and pain, both for the individual in the organization, a little more time a little more.

Michael Yinger: focus and you’re bringing in the right people for the job that you say, well then crew increase in you know it increases the time to hire well, not necessarily.

Michael Yinger: If you’re able to weed through those that aren’t appropriate more quickly and get down to that shortlist of those who are.

Michael Yinger: You know, and then you’re better off anyway, if you’re always better off if you get people to stay and they’re saying for the right reasons because you’ve been able to meet their needs, their requirements as part of the recruitment process.

Traci Scherck: Absolutely and getting to know who they are not just the specifics of it, do you have the skill set to do this job right it’s like I say this, all the time and I always get a laugh, it is we hire individuals for what they know yet we fire them for who they are yeah.

Traci Scherck: Right like that yeah you know and so looking at that, like same with this example from the client that I just shared it is looking at that and saying hey.

Traci Scherck: she’s very process oriented the job needs her to be very process oriented and the job needs her to be very detail oriented, how do we create the container for her to be successful right.

Michael Yinger: So it’s meeting its way you know and you’re not going to meet everybody’s needs you that’s that’s true not everybody’s going to fit and.

Michael Yinger: The little accommodations can make a whole bunch of difference.

Traci Scherck: yeah absolutely so the point that I didn’t want to forget and then i’m going to tie this into a couple points that we had chatted about was.

Traci Scherck: You know, when we know what the behavioral traits of an individual, are we can actually write the job ads specifically to them, we can also use that language within our network, so you talked about $4,000 just you know, to get a lead.

Traci Scherck: You know in something we found is when we can talk about a job so essentially hey are you someone that loves to have everything aligned.

Traci Scherck: And everything in order and nothing out of place in are you an individual that also loves physical activity do love working out do you love hiking or biking or those things guess what we have a job for you.

Traci Scherck: here’s specific then somebody who is that hiker biker that is very detail oriented is going to go there, talking directly to me.

Traci Scherck: But not only that then.

Traci Scherck: Then, once we know that we’re going to attract those individuals to us we’re also going to repel the folks that do not.

Traci Scherck: align with that which means we’re not going to get as many applications in the door, but we’re going to get better quality applicants in the door.

Traci Scherck: And that’s something that you know I think is beautiful, as we have those conversations, then, once we do that.

Traci Scherck: As we bring them into the organization and onboard them we’re going to onboard them the way they need to be on boarded and I know that you’ve got a couple stories about this as well, and how you’ve done this.

Traci Scherck: In your career too.

Michael Yinger: Well, what what you’re describing, of course, is the marketing side back to the beginning of our conversation if you get the right people to apply the process is easier and.

Michael Yinger: It the the onboarding process should be tailored to what they the job entails so that somebody.

Michael Yinger: Is you know it’s a realistic kind of thing all too often, you know that most of the onboarding stories ends up being horror stories right.

Michael Yinger: If there was somebody in a room in front of a computer and say okay watch these 4 5 videos for the next two weeks, and hope that some of it sticks.

Michael Yinger: I looked at some really interesting software, the other day that focuses on bite size learning that reinforces the messaging because it takes us several times for things to sink in.

Michael Yinger: There was an article in forbes just recently that said it’s no longer seven times it’s not 100.

Michael Yinger: We have to be told something 100 times worse, well, I hope, that’s not literally, true, but the point is we’ve become this bite sized culture.

Michael Yinger: And you can either embrace that and recognize that we’re looking at multiple screens we’re looking at short bits we’re reading the headlines, not the body of the article.

Michael Yinger: Or you can you can stick with the traditional and you’re gonna lose people you’re going to lose people so there’s a you got to have some flexibility and how you’re considering.

Michael Yinger: Bringing those people in and what your how you’re working with them, or you lose them and then there’s the retention right to thinking about what’s it going to take, and it fits right in.

Michael Yinger: If you’ve created a realistic job description, something that the describes maybe metaphorically, as you did.

Michael Yinger: What the job is like then your training needs to mirror that so that that you don’t come away with somebody having unmet expectations well.

Michael Yinger: I applied for this job that talked about bike riding maybe not literally but, again, metaphorically if the training is is you know filling out forms and tick boxes and whatnot not at all about you know.

Michael Yinger: Being loose and free and whatnot you run a real challenge of turning them off in the training process and.

Michael Yinger: And I hear stories, you know used to be ghosting just wasn’t showing up for the interview.

Michael Yinger: ghosting is not coming back to the second day orientation.

Michael Yinger: And that happens.

Michael Yinger: And there’s a there’s a huge cost in that.

Traci Scherck: yeah absolutely because you’ve already gone through the entire onboarding process and the background check process and all the things that go along with that.

Michael Yinger: Absolutely money spending all the money and they walk well.

Traci Scherck: You know, and I think that there’s times to where individuals come aboard and they are making I mean they’re doing amazing in the role but they’re not loving it like, how do you handle those situations.

Michael Yinger: yeah so it’s.

Michael Yinger: There there’s training that I helped develop that looks at coaching in management, because there’s there’s more to you know the the role of the manager.

Michael Yinger: I think it metaphorically, is that of the coach you know you’re not you’re not doing all the work well if you are then you’re not you’re very good manager right you haven’t you have delegated properly.

Michael Yinger: And so, part of coaching is not only making sure that people are doing it in a certain way and getting it done within a certain time.

Michael Yinger: But, also, that the goals of that individual are aligned with what you’re going to do organization so let’s say you got somebody they’re doing a great job what they’re doing.

Michael Yinger: you’re a I don’t know your legal data firm right you’re you know something like lexis nexis i’m not picking on lexis nexis it just happened to come to mind, but what this person really wants to do is to be a chef.

Michael Yinger: Now they’re really good at research but it’s not did just because they’re smart and so part of being a good manager being a good coach is understanding what the motivation to that person is because, maybe the best thing for you organization best thing for them employee is to move on.

Michael Yinger: You know, try to force fit is the I love the metaphor of the square peg in the round hole.

Michael Yinger: Mostly, because people don’t think about well if you know the peg is usually the person right you’re trying to shove, a peg in a hole, well think about there’s not only the damage to the peg but there’s the damage to the whole.

Michael Yinger: So the organization suffers when you’re trying to.

Michael Yinger: force somebody to do something that they’re really not suited for and maybe there’s something else somewhere in the organization.

Michael Yinger: Or maybe it is just that they need to find something else and sometimes the best thing you can do is to help somebody gracefully.

Michael Yinger: Find whatever that is because you’re going to be better often as an organization, rather than fighting it all the time, even if they’re doing the work.

Michael Yinger: there’s going to be difficulties right they’re going to be challenges the handovers aren’t going to be clean there’s going to be something that’s not perfect, out of it.

Michael Yinger: And and that’s part of the managers job is to be thinking about that as much as, how do you make them productive it’s Are they really the right fit.

Traci Scherck: Especially yeah.

Michael Yinger: Once you’ve been through the hiring process you’ve done the best you can selecting but they’re people are going to get people are going to get through, where it wasn’t the right fit.

Traci Scherck: We tend to call those happy alumni, how do we create the happy alumni.

Traci Scherck: absolutely sure that you know what there’s times, where we need to create the pathways out of the organization, but with that we want to ensure that they.

Traci Scherck: will refer individuals back to the organization and maybe somewhere down the line, things will cross, but when you look at that and we go back to recruitment guess where your best referral sources come from his employees and happy alumni.

Traci Scherck: When you create happy alumni you can you can pull them back in and much like your conversation about the chef.

Traci Scherck: You know who wants to be a chef that’s in this role and might be, you know I know you want to be a chef tell me more about that.

Traci Scherck: How can we support you, maybe it’s a 40 hour a week that job there, and right now, and they don’t feel like they can make the money as being a chef.

Traci Scherck: At this point, or go to school, to get their chef whatever at this point so maybe the conversation is what does 20 hours a week, look like, so you can do an and both to truly be successful.

Michael Yinger: That you love to see that kind of flexibility it’s something that I’ve used over the course of my career.

Michael Yinger: Yet and and it’s surprising how organizations can be structurally against that I think one of the one of the greatest things in the world.

Michael Yinger: was when the idea of job sharing became more prevalent and I had a couple of people working for me.

Michael Yinger: One worked in the mornings one worked in the afternoon, they had a half hour overlap, there was a process of what they were handing over to each other and they it was a perfect fit for these two people.

Michael Yinger: Not everybody it’s got you know that kind of things not going to work for everybody it’s do you have the organizational fortitude to be flexible.

Michael Yinger: And some companies do sometimes we just don’t it’s not just small companies that was a fairly big company that I was working for that we were willing to take that kind of a stance with somebody.

Michael Yinger: it’s it really shows where your focus is your focus there’s there’s a great book written by a CEO that that that inverts the pyramid where the bottom of the pyramid.

Michael Yinger: Are the employees and you got to support the employees, because of the top of the pyramid or the customers and so, if you’re not supporting the bottom of the pyramid then your customers aren’t getting any support.

Michael Yinger: And it’s it’s really, really critical to have that kind of flexibility, especially now, where a the you know the opportunities are there for you to leave and be the cost of replacement is so huge.

Traci Scherck: yeah absolutely um so before we get to our key takeaway is you know it’s also looking at this in the recruitment process I just hired someone who, for an administrative coordinator position who’s leaving a teaching job.

Traci Scherck: And I could sense the love, she has, for her kiddos and I said to her, so what would it look like, if I brought you on at 15 hours a week, right now, for you to finish out the school year.

Traci Scherck: and leave these kids whole and complete and usually whole and complete with a school year she got tears in her eyes and she’s like thank you so much yeah.

Michael Yinger: Exactly so so now, I think it think of the goodwill that you just created with that small bit of flexibility.

Michael Yinger: Right she’s probably going to work more than 15 hours a week for you she’s going to work harder at that, and once she comes on full time she’s going to have this tremendous attitude recognizing that you.

Michael Yinger: cared for what was happening with her, not just for the work that she was going to do for you.

Traci Scherck: Right right yeah.

Michael Yinger: super.

Traci Scherck: You know, so you know the plate behind me says, I wonder what’s on their plate that I don’t yet know about you know, and I think it’s so important to ask those questions all throughout the process, so i’m curious what you believe is a key takeaway for executives listening in today.

Michael Yinger: I think we go back to the very beginning of the conversation Tracy which is recognize that recruiting is a sales process.

Michael Yinger: And that’s not a bad thing that’s just a mindset in terms of how you approach that recruiting conversation and how you take advantage of some of the tools that are coming on the market you’re trying to convince people to buy you.

Michael Yinger: that’s what you’re trying to do.

Michael Yinger: And so that’s a sales process it’s not a telling process it’s an asking process, and I think that that these are not huge changes that you need to make and.

Michael Yinger: And, quite frankly, it i’ve seen recruiters as they begin to embrace this it’s almost liberating because now all of a sudden, you don’t have to have all the answers.

Michael Yinger: You have to have some good questions and it’s really about just making sure that that you’re really getting to what is it that the person wants so it’s it’s a sales process.

Traci Scherck: Absolutely and what’s the takeaway for our HR listeners.

Michael Yinger: You have the flexibility built into your system that you can handle people who need something different, and you know we both had some examples of that.

Michael Yinger: It really takes a good partnership with HR you know if you’re going to have to split a job, what happens to the benefits and.

Michael Yinger: What happens to vacation and all those little kinds of things that you that you need to think about in advance and that’s where HR is going to come in helping you set those kinds of things up.

Michael Yinger: You know, as you talk about creating good alumni who’s keeping track of the alumni who’s reaching out to them, if you are.

Michael Yinger: That you know, there are tools that are available to create an alumni talent pool that can be very valuable as both as a referral sources you already pointed out, and perhaps as as a.

Michael Yinger: rehire source.

Michael Yinger: A little bit further down the line, why lose those resources if you can help it there been some companies have done a good job with that salesforce, for example, using their own tools was is known for that, but it’s it takes engagement with HR at that point to really make that happen.

Traci Scherck: And a good tool, you know that allows you to go back and see who apply for jobs, previously, for your recruiters to reach out to the weren’t higher than because what the data tells us is that.

Traci Scherck: You know, individuals that you call it have a fight with your organization previously are 40% more likely to pick up the phone yeah.

Michael Yinger: So I think it’s really true that you they there’s gold in the you know in that that list of people that weren’t accepted.

Michael Yinger: And there are tools for that you know there’s candidate relationship management tools and so forth, that really you know once you’ve gone to the trouble to uncover these people, particularly the ones that you actually talk to.

Michael Yinger: that’s valuable information that’s a valuable commodity for you to use the next time around, rather than just starting everything from scratch.

Traci Scherck: Absolutely so as we close today I want our listeners to know where to find you and we’ll have in the show notes linkedin and Facebook, but also your website, you have a 30 day free trial just you know in 30 seconds, do you want to tell us about that.

Michael Yinger: Sure, is so we have an application is called the sieve that works at the front end of the recruiting funnel.

Michael Yinger: ranking evaluating and ranking candidates now, this can be done standalone can be done in conjunction with an applicant tracking system or, as we were just talking about with it with a CRM.

Michael Yinger: Our website is resume CIV dot COM just resume save calm.

Michael Yinger: And you can see what’s what’s going on there, you can reach me at Michael at resume seven.com and be happy to talk with you, if you get to our website, you can book a DEMO or as you suggest you can you can go ahead and book a 30 day trial and.

Michael Yinger: love to show people how you can do what you just described, which is mining some of that old information.

Michael Yinger: is really helpful.

Traci Scherck: yeah because it’s super important, so thank you so much for joining us today and again that free tool that we have, which is a predictive index behavioral assessment.

Traci Scherck: Is in the show notes it’s also on our website and if you’re looking for, how do we really create that process, you know, which is what we’ve been talking about today from how do we think differently, how do we ask those questions.

Traci Scherck: From that leadership perspective, our higher program is launching soon and that is perfectly paired with something like resume says right because we are not.

Traci Scherck: You know, a software, but what we are is we do allow you to look specifically at those processes and the people in the processes, meaning your HR and how they are being in this process to truly be successful.

Traci Scherck: So Mike Thank you so much for joining us today and look forward to continuing the conversation online on linkedin, as this is posted there and seeing kind of what our listeners really think and what they’re doing to be successful.

Michael Yinger: thanks for the conversation Tracy I really enjoyed it.

Traci Scherck: Absolutely, have a great one thanks.